In continuation of our series of articles on reseller agreements best practices in the Asia Pacific, Greenhouse’s CEO, Drew Calin, interviews Anna Gong CEO and Founder of Perx Technologies. The interview covers a variety of interesting topics like Perx’s ISV ecosystem flywheel, how Anna thinks of different types of partners, and what are the best practices in aligning incentives when drafting a reseller agreement.
Perx Technologies is a Lifestyle Marketing SaaS Platform based in Singapore that helps large enterprises and digital native businesses transform from being transient and transactional to delivering continuous and meaningful customer engagements in the digital economy. Check out more on their website: www.perxtech.com/
The interview covered the following main points:
1. Perx’s ISV Ecosystem Flywheel
Firstly, Anna introduces Perx’s Independent Software Vendor (ISV) Ecosystem Flywheel and why these partners are the more relevant partners of Perx. She explains that these companies, for example in the E-commerce industry or Adtech or Data Analytics (as seen in the screenshot of her presentation slides below), has a core mission to drive value. Whereas traditional resellers may not be as effective.
Meaning, Perx seeks to be plugged into multiple relevant ecosystems as per the image below, in order to drive considerable growth. Anna talks about the importance of being embedded in many larger players such as Shopify in order to provide seamless experiences for the users while growing the customer base considerably.
2. Different Types of Partners of Perx
Perx currently looks out for four different types of partners. They are namely:
- Rewards Partners.
- Alliance Partners, examples include the big four, and global SIs (e.g. Accenture).
- Independent Software Vendor (ISV) Partners cover companies like AWS, Mambu, customer data platforms, and loyalty solutions.
- Digital Partners e.g. Axiata digital, companies that need to do data integration and data analysis.
3. Three Types of Partners Structure
- Referral Partner
- Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) Partner
For the most part, Perx Technologies shies away from referral partnerships because of the unpredictability and low return on investment. Anna explains that leads coming from such partnerships are often not terribly well qualified, lacking meaningful insights, have a higher risk of non-closure, and can take longer to close, thus needing more efforts from her team. Hence why Perx prioritizes resellers and OEM partners.
For referral partners, Perx normally starts off the partner engagement with one or two ad hoc deals and offers a one-off commission as a percentage of the overall deal size. This is to help the future referral partner to get acquainted with the Perx product and services offering, build up inhouse sales and marketing expertise, and create their own go-to-market strategy, as well as encourage larger transactions. When it comes to examples, commission payouts range between 3% and 7% depending on the size of the deal, on the lower end they have US$25k and on the higher up to US$100k where the commission reaches 7%. The overall tenor of the transaction can also have a material influence on the amount of commission paid with a three-year transaction usually attracting a commission of 1.5x the amount for a one-year deal.
They also require a minimum target to reinforce the commitment to the partnership, typically that’s 5 transactions or US$500k to US$1M per annum cumulative ACV per partner account. If the referral partners are able to hit these agreed targets, they can be “upgraded” to Resellers.
Lastly, Perx also contracts with end customers directly and controls the entire transaction to ensure maximum product–customer fit and post-sales customer support. Essentially, referral partners are a fairly easy method helping a vendor to build a sales pipeline, however, with the risk, if not monitored and executed well, of low closure rates.
Under Resellers, Perx offers a sliding commission structure and this can range from 10-25% one-off to encourage larger transactions. There is also a minimum commitment of 10 transactions to be achieved. Anna explains further that when target transactions are not met in this case, they will try to figure out why these companies are underachieving in weekly sales calls (for some of their mature partners), and eventually if not solved, companies will be downgraded to being a referral partner.
Sometimes upcoming startups are willing to give about 30% commission to gain market share or build up a critical mass of customers. Having said that, at the moment the market is a bit more mature, hence why many companies are trying to cap the commission at a maximum of 30%, in most cases keeping it lower than that.
For example, when Salesforce was new to India they gave 30% commission. As the company’s brand awareness grew, Salesforce started decreasing it down to 20 and then all the way to 10%.
At times, and especially in emerging markets, you may see companies requesting 50% or higher as reseller commission. In Anna’s view, that’s a joint venture model rather than a reseller partnership. If you are seriously considering such an approach make sure the reselling partner must be willing to assign a whole team and focus almost solely on selling your solution.
Like with everything else, all rules have exceptions. Larger distributors able to offer a strong network of contacts and holding a strong market position will push for 40% to 60% initial commission. While that seems incredibly high and more relevant for a joint venture approach, in some cases the network, manpower, and reputation of the reseller justify the above market rates high commission. It’s entirely up to you to assess whether designing such referral agreements can be beneficial for your business, in particular, if you’re trying to build a long-term portfolio as the commission is usually only payable based on first-year revenue.
In the interview, Anna also shares more about the importance of viewing these resellers as part of your sales team, whereby giving them the training and resources they need can greatly benefit the partnership and result. Perx Technologies also certifies their resellers which opens up more resources for them to use. However, regular pruning of your partnership network is also an important part of the process of managing your direct and indirect sales force, so do not neglect it. Additionally, Perx leverages Crossbeam as a platform to manage all different aspects of the relationship with resellers, otherwise, with higher volume, it can get pretty difficult to keep track of everyone and provide transparent reporting.
Lastly, OEM Partners, as the most mature type of partner relationship simply present Perx a Purchase Order (PO) for every transaction. OEM partners have to hit a minimum of 15 transactions and if not achieved, will then be downgraded to reseller partners (that comes at US$1.5 to $2M cumulative ACV per partner account per annum). In the case of OEMs, the end customer contracts and pays first the OEM partner, and then the partner pays Perx Technologies the agreed OEM selling price. What you have to consider when working with OEMs is to what extent your solution is visible or deeply embedded in the partner’s tech stack. Which in turn dictates what share of the end customer selling price you want to give them. The percentage is completely up to you, hopefully, you will have ~80% margin (an aspired average within the SaaS industry) on your product which will allow you to give away more and thus get more exposure through the OEM’s product.
Given that many of those OEM partners are quite large and have considerable deal flow at any time, you might be able to negotiate an upfront payment because their customers will immediately start leveraging your solution upon integration. Alternatively, you will get passive rolling revenues coming through the partner.
From time to time, OEM partners will ask for exclusivity to sell products & services within a given territory or to a specific industry vertical. Best practices suggest that any exclusivity should be earned based on the OEM partner’s performance over an agreed period of time. Similarly, exclusivity can be lost if partner performance falls short of agreed targets.
In order to avoid any confusion or misunderstandings, any reseller relationship should be governed by a well-structured and detailed partnership agreement. Particular emphasis should be given to documenting the mutual expectations of both parties for entering into a partnership in the first place, what each party brings to the partnership table, and what constitutes a win-win situation. These are key features and should be agreed upon, irrespective of the bargaining position of either party.
Anna wrapped up the interview by also sharing the onboarding process of partners and briefly how they build up their Learning Management System (LMS). From a training and development perspective, partners have the same onboarding and development needs as your in-house sales staff and relevant efforts should be made accordingly.
Our team will continue to interview thought leaders in the Asia Pacific to uncover the best practices behind designing reseller agreements, activating a network of partners across the region, and in general, building your go-to-market strategy. Stay tuned.
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ARR: Annual Recurring Revenue
AWS: Amazon Web Services
BSS: Business Support Systems
CDP: Customer Data Platforms
CRM: Customer Relationship Management
EUA: End User Agreement
GPM: Gross Profit Margin
ISV: Independent Software Vendor
LMS: Learning Management System
OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturer
OSS: Operational Support Systems
PO: Purchase Order
Drew: Are you using resellers?
Perx: I am, quite a bit.
Drew: What kind of resellers?
Perx’s ISV Ecosystem Flywheel
Perx: Let me give you, so this is our partner program. So we want to create a ISV ecosystem and also resell flywheel. ISVs will contribute a lot more to, you know, to the Perx ecosystem, because they have a core mission to drive value versus the traditional resellers may or may not because mostly resellers relationships don't really work out that well. ISV's because you're so plugged in to, let's say, the Shopify ecosystem, to the AWS ecosystem, to a bunch of other marketplaces. So we want to be part of that marketplace. And that's where we're, you know, so that's why, for Perx to 10x, the company, we have to make sure that we're plugged in to all of these different ecosystems, right? And then we define who those partners are. We want to be embedded either integrated into those marketplaces where the multiplier effect for all of these different companies, like let's say we're writing, the e-commerce, you know, revolution, and that whole e-commerce growth engine, if they can, you know, if they go to the marketplace, the Shopify app marketplace, they find Perx, they can just set up the loyalty program, they can set up their rewards, they can now drive engagement and everything is so seamless, right? It's similar to what Salesforce has done with App exchange as well. So how do we create that and be plugged into these ecosystems so that the engine will drive itself? And then there are OEM partners. So these are different types of partners that we are looking at. But in terms of your SME network, I'm not sure if your target customer base is, you know, they're SMEs looking to grow.
Drew: No, they're largely funded startups, Series A, Series B.
Perx: Okay. So, it depends on the solutions that they're and if you're focusing on FinTech or other solutions that want to grow into these other. What I would say is, what's the sale? You know, what is that growth? For those countries in Southeast Asia? Let's say it's FinTech. And that means you have to look at the core services that drive that e-commerce business because they always want a CRM, they want a wallet, they want you know, you have to think about that Shopify. Then the CRM business right, they have to manage your customer database. They have to have a marketing stack they have to have you know, all this. So the whole supply chain that means HubSpot, you know, who's who are the HubSpot partners and HubSpot revenue is actually more than 60% of their revenue. They're reaching a billion ARR, you know, so 600 million is all partner-driven. So you might want to start there because HubSpot is pretty much serving the SMEs, right? In the startup ecosystem, as well. And that's sweet and these other kinds of solutions, fresh works and coming out of the Woodworks and they serve those startup ecosystems as well. And so then that is the total package of CRM. And then there is that Salesforce lite version of those partners that you might want to look at. The FinTech evolution is for the wallets, who are the banks who are the settlement engines. So those partners might drive something differently when they expand.
Different Types of Partners of Perx
So when we are looking at partnership, we're looking for rewards partners, alliance partners, those are the big four or five right companies that we typically are global size. The Accenture's, the Capgemini is the emphasis and you know, all of those, and then there are the tier two, tier three guys who are competing with those big guys. And so that's an alliance partner where they are just trying to add value to the existing core portfolio. And there's so nascent of fear that they're not going to build it yet until they have critical mass like Capgemini. Nice CTO, the global CTO is now trying to push us into a few of the banks, as well as you know, North America and Asia.
Drew: It's awesome.
Perx: Yeah. So these are the types of Alliance partners, right?
ISV partner could be like an AWS type Mambu. Right. All the other solutions CDP's customer data platforms that we have. And so we're trying to now integrate with them, others loyalty solutions, you know, because we're a very heavy rules engine, and we're a very heavy engagement engine and gamification, so we complement even existing loyalty solutions. And so that's where if the Philippines the some of the ISVs are actually OBM-ing us.
And then there are the digital partners who are like the mini versions of the den zoos, the, you know, some of these axiata digital, you know, those type of guys, who are only there to do data integration, data analysis? How do they integrate? How do they make sense and help monetize that data? How do they help build campaigns and content and creatives and digital, so all of this is, you know, a segment that we're actually also looking at, but our one of our biggest focus is here.
Three Types of Partners Structure
So then three types of partner structure. Referral partners, typically, almost never really work. Because it's fu-fu. Right, we have a referral agreement with one of the Marketing Cloud companies. They do push narrative, SMS, emails, you know, those, those are a dime a dozen, right, a very crowded space. And they want to refer us to those companies or clients that actually always ask them to do gamification or loyalty and this and that, and they don't have those, the capability. And so they tried to refer us but then stops there because there's no rigor, there's no team that focuses on us. So 99% of the time, we try to shy away from it. We don't do referral partners. Reseller partners that we have, have a measurement. We would have and I'll show you the margins later, and how do we measure some of the financial commitments with resell and then the OEM partners where you're so deeply embedded into their platform that they pass through? So this is the sell-through sell with. So that sells through is a turnkey solution and it's almost like a black box or white label solution and they don't know that Perx is part of it, because we're completely white-labeled into that solution. It's like core billing, like in the telco space, there's this Jewish company that on 70% of the telco market, and so anything that comes through the BSS stack, they own it, the OSS BSS stack, they pretty much own the billing for telcos. And so they want to now incorporate us into their entire platforms because they want to run loyalty, they want to run the whole engagement through Perx, and that will be an OEM structure, where the telcos would now buy this as a turnkey solution. And they wouldn't know that Perx is part of the solution. That is another and this is very common with deep tech, particularly. And so the referral partners, these are some of the things that we've been working on is, how do we start off with some one-off ad hoc deal, right? Whether it's a pilot, one that because it was a very big logo that we want to get and treat you. And then we would look at giving them a certain percentage and these are just examples, right, 3%, 5%, and 7%. These are actual examples of what we are proposing to our partners. Based on deal sizes, you know, these are one-offs, minimum targets, because we want to introduce some kind of commitment. Otherwise, there will be no upgrade to margins, because once they reach it to resell a partnership, there would be no margin game. And this one we're Perx with an actual contract with the end customer.
Drew: That's cool. I like that you're giving them targets and there's an upgrade potential. So because in my experience, you'll sign on, I don't know, 100 referral partners and maybe five are actually really working for you.
Perx: Yeah, exactly.
Sliding commission base
Drew: And that's how that's how you build your pipeline for resellers?
Perx: Yeah. So the reseller partners, we have, you know, a sliding commission base, the regional SAAS numbers-- if you're really hell-bent on growth, and you just want logos, right? choir logos, logos, you don't care about the deal sizes, you don't care about the ARR, then that's a different margin. And you really just want to incentivize resellers to go and just hit and run, hit and run. So those margins are bigger. And we've seen, like new startups in certain categories, giving 30% margin to commission, right 30% Commission. If it's a 100k deal, that giving 30 or 30,000, to the partner. But now that the market is a bit more mature, and you're basing on revenue, which most startups actually do, or tech companies, so like Salesforce, when they were trying to work in the Indian market, they gave 30% for a while. And then they eventually moved into 20%. And then 10%.
Drew: Because they already had a brand in the market. Right?
Perx: Yeah, they have scale, right.
Another speaker: There's a difference in rate for ARR and professional services, right? Usually, they ask more from the ARR. I've heard of cases like in Indonesia, someone tried to ask for 50%.
Perx: Yeah, that's a JV, then you have a full team that is going after that market for me, then I'll give you 50%. Right. So then you just O'Shea, because this is essentially what we're doing with them. I haven't even covered the distributors, right, as net Westcon. You know, these other traditional guys really take 40% margin easily. And sometimes 50 or 60%, depending and they push it to the entire cascading portfolio because they have teams that would commit to a number for you. But you are going to have to give them 40 to 60%. And they're going to distribute the hell out of your products and platforms.
Drew: And they give you resources, right?
Perx: Yeah, exactly. So that's another category of the overarching distributors. So we started with JV and in Vietnam, where we're getting 50% away. And it's just started pretty much. And they're fast-tracking some of the deeper relationships with the conglomerates for us. And with that, they're actually investing in a team, we have zero risks, you know, everything that we make together, it goes into the bucket. And then that bucket is divided 50-50. And then when we exit, when we grow, when we want to leave the Vietnam market in any way, shape, or form it's a five-year contract, we can get out so that you don't get locked in. And 50% that we just when we exit, then we give him the 50% back.
Another speaker: So that's kind of like a pure SAAS revenue, right? So you don't split into the different revenue types, because SAAS is probably a higher margin than professional services.
Perx: Yes. So if you think about on a benchmark basis of 80% GPM, the gross profit margin for SAAS, that's healthy. Then the 20% would be your cost structure. So then we would, you know, consider you too, to measure the 20% equally, and then the revenue piece we don't touch, that's split. And so whatever they're going to double down on, or invest in that costs of running the business, they have to give us back that 20% because we're the hosting provider, we're the tech where the IP producer, we're doing all the development. And so that 20% comes back to Perx regardless. So you can structure it in different ways. It just really depends on your business. And have you reached that GPM scale? Because if you're still 50%, you're still pretty much trying to find product-market fit. You don't have the credibilities yet.
Drew: Just a question on the minimum commitment. If they don't reach 10 transactions, what happens for example, in this case, smaller commissions?
Perx: So we were to measure them like a sales rep in a way.
Drew: Oh so decelerators and accelerators right?
Perx: Yeah. And we would put them you know, put them like they're an extension to our sales team. way. And then we try to figure out what's working., what's not. Why are they underachieving? At best? You know, we want them to achieve 50% to 70%. We give them these goals, but at least there's nothing to go after. But most companies actually do not put targets in the partnership agreements. And that's where they fail, because it's done. It's a glorified contract with no pressure. Yeah, no pressure.
Drew: Do you do quarterly? Obviously, depends on the sales cycle for the customer, right? For you, but do you do quarterly targets for them?
Perx: We do quarterly, we have an annual number. And then we have quarterly, but we actually have weekly sales calls with them. Even some of the more mature partners that we have. Some are bi-monthly calls, where we're reviewing the pipeline with them. We have a CRM measurement where we would just literally look at the commits. We drive them, our partner sales team drives our partners, like their sales reps. Say you committed this What happened?
Drew: Yeah. And is your team doing training as you would your own sales staff?
Perx: Yes. So we're building a really robust LMS, and also a partner academy, where we would give them all the tools, we have to certify them as well. And then give them certification levels, where if they're an expert level, they get privileges to a lot of other things, and they get to be on the customer council level.
Pruning of reseller partner network
Drew: And how rigorously do you prune your resell partner network?
Perx: Oh, pretty instantly, like one of the partners the referral partners, like after two quarters, I said, cut this. With a breakup letter.
Drew: So two quarters?
Another speaker: Why do you break out rather than just leaving them hanging?
Drew: Cuz it's just a waste of space?
Perx: Waste of time. Waste of space, you're in junk out is like your CRM
Drew: Yea, you're paying for if you're using HubSpot?
Perx: Yeah. It's a liability, right?
Another speaker: Do you charge them for training them?
Perx: Yeah, we have a rigorous onboarding process for partners.
Another speaker: Right. So you kind of charge them for like per pax?
Perx: No, we don't charge them yet, because I don't think you should charge them because we're not in that business. Unless they want to take our solution and drive it education business out of that, which we're not. So yeah, we certify them. We're not AWS. We're not going to charge you to get certified because now getting that certification means you get a better job.
Another speaker: Do you tell them that in order to be our resell partner you need to meet how many sales reps how many engineers? So that you at least have a team that is well equipped to sell?
Perx: Yes, so minimum commitment is, you know, we go backward, right. We talk about if the average revenue, target annual, you know, revenue is let's say, this partner that we sign up, they're going to achieve $1 million for us this year. And then we work backward and say we ourselves the principal, we pay our guys much higher than they would pay their reps, right and their team. So let's say Thailand, Thailand, salary is probably a third of what we pay our reps here, or maybe even 50% for some of the higher-level ones. But if that's the case, then we go backward by is 10x, the OT or 5x, two. So each rep, actually my account directors have a target of 1.5 million. Already. I'm like one rep exceeds the entire partners’ requirement for me. So that means they only need one rep if they really truly pay for that. But if they are half the price of my AEs or account director or account executives, then they might have to hire two people to achieve that or three people to achieve that. So you measure the budget per headcount of sales reps based on how you would measure your internal budget. And if I'm going to achieve 10 million ARR that means on average, my reps quota is 1 million.
Drew: When you're building your agreement with your reseller partners, are you putting in like volume of sales calls?
Perx: Not to that granularity? Because we don't want to micromanage them to that degree. Not yet. Because we're having weekly or bi-monthly cadences and sales pipeline reviews with them already.
Drew: Are there weekly targets?
Perx: Weekly target? No, because we're not, we're not driving the $99 or $10 drop-off price or, the quick DocuSign. It's not a credit card model, ours is enterprising. But we would probably, we're actually trying to open-source our entire platform and give it away. This is something that I'm talking about what the team is, how do we give away our entire tech stack?
Drew: That's cool, let everyone become your army?
Perx: Yeah. And that's where, yeah, just growth right? Off to growth.
Drew: Are your resellers integrated into your own CRM?
Perx: No, because we don't have that scale yet. We could, eventually. We're now working with about 30 partners, it can get pretty nasty. We're using Crossbeam or trying to use Crossbeam so that you don't have to do any of this integration. So you integrate once and then the visibility of all of this can be, you know, scalable and managed properly.
Drew: Oh it's a partner ecosystem platform. That's cool. Is it a software?
Perx: Yeah, it's a platform. And then OEM partners, simply just give us a PO for every transaction, it's on their paper. It's not on our paper. But the other partners are on our paper. But eventually, we will probably have to clean this up when we grow bigger and will force them to actually just click on our EUA, or end-user agreement. And just like Microsoft or Salesforce, it's just everything's online, and forces every partner every customer to just literally click on these EUAs. And then, you know, just like you would agree or disagree on every contract, or every adoption of technology that you sign as an end consumer.
Drew: So right now, the customer is paying the OEMs?
Perx: Our partner, our OEM partner is on their contract. So the end customer, the bank would then pay this.
Drew: And they pay you back, OEM pays you.
Perx: Yeah. And then they would just give us the PO.
Another speaker: Out of curiosity, for OEM partners, how much discount of retail do you give them? How would you think about how much to price OEM? I think OEM pricing is something that I find hard to wrap my head around.
Perx: Yeah, it really depends, right? There are so many different types of OEM partners, that are larger like solutions, like SAP, let's just use the SAP as an example. They have so many different OEM partnerships. And if they embed your solution in there, sometimes they expose your brand, they have an OEM team or ISV team. And it's more like a hybrid resell OEM solution. But if it's deeply embedded, that is a completely different story than, the commercials could be a prepay? Because it could be part of their CAPEX already done, you know, they're investing in this partnership. And they have to do X number of different innovations or cutting edge technologies, and they're gonna throw this investment out the door. They already have amortized this throughout their P&L and their financial model. So you can actually get them to pay upfront or maybe even phase into the payment cycle. Or you actually work with them because there's a huge pipeline that they have or their existing customer base, automatically just consumes your technology, and then it's just an ongoing PO that they send you and so then you have a rolling passive income through them. And that margin is really up to you because if you have a GPM of 80 percent, you can afford to give a lot more away. And sometimes you know GPM could be 90%. And you can afford to give a lot more away.
Drew: Cool, super comprehensive.
Perx: I hope that's helpful.
Drew: Yeah, that's very helpful. How many people do you have running your partnership team?
Perx: We have four people, we're just hiring another two. Because you need any the sales guy, the BD guy, you need the pre sales, the partner enablement person. That's three. And then you have the Partner Manager that just does the cadence and then we're just going to invest in partnerships.
Drew: Yeah, it's the fastest way to scale. 100%.
Drew: Super cool. Listen, um, you've answered all my questions. I'm really appreciative of your time. I know you have a lot going on, given that you're flying across the world tomorrow. And I'm really happy for you. So thank you for making this happen. Thank you.
Learning Management System (LMS)
Another speaker: Yeah, just one last question. You said that you're building on your LMS. And you're investing a lot in your partner’s enablement. Who does all these things? And do you mind sharing how does a partner onboarding process looks because we do that too, but I feel like it's very ad hoc?
Perx: Yeah, so the onboarding process should not be different than onboarding your own employee. So we pre-board the partners, we onboard them, we make sure that they're by the 90th, day, they should be productive. And they, you know, some could be even making their first sale. But, if six months later, you're not closing a deal, then we pip them. So partner LMS, we extend that so that the enablement team, the sales enablement, and the rev ops team also work heavily with the partner team. And they mirror everything that we do and the rigor and that whole adoption. Why would it be any different? They're your extension of your Salesforce?
Drew: That should be exactly like that. I think that's why mistakes companies make in working with partners. Is there's some leniency there?
Perx: Yeah, too much.
Drew: There's some perceived leniency. I'm not really sure where that comes from, LinkedIn struggle with that, we were terrible.
Perx: It's a relationship. It's not a business partnership.
Drew: It is a business partnership. It shouldn't be a business partnership.
Perx: Exactly. As I was saying, like, if you're not measuring, you know, and they're too lax, or they must target over and over again, and then you're like "Oh it's okay, you know, it's a buddy of mine, you know?"
Another speaker: What's the easiest way to build up your LMS?
Perx: Maybe I can do a different session with you separately. The LMS is really cumbersome. And it's really about the rigor and you have to hire like a kick-ass Rev Ops, enablement team. That content and that playbook should be there. And we have paper flight at the moment and we're actually going to be fed up with so many different other tools. But paper flight has, if you need to access who's reading what, who's downloading what document, who is accessing the documents, from a customer level, from a partner level, which team which territory, we can track all of that, right.
Another speaker: So you use a paper flight, not just for your clients, but also as a kind of like an LMS for your recent order.
Perx: Yeah, for now. But the team is actually they're moving so fast. I'm not keeping up with the tools, but we use play four or five tools right now.
Another speaker: Yeah, I see. Okay. Yeah. So paper flights are quite useful in that sense to to see if they're actually engaging with the content.
Drew: Oh, cool. Thank you. I'll see you around the way
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